ļ»æALC ChangeMakers Podcast Interview with Mark Fairfield (includes intro and outro)
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Hi everybody, and welcome to the ALC Changemakers Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Sconyers, president and founder of Abundance Leadership Consulting, and I'm so glad you're joining us today. On this podcast, we explore the real stories, relationships, and strategies behind social change and sustainable leadership.
We're here to lift up the people doing the deep, often unseen work to build community. Transform systems and lead with values, especially in times of uncertainty. Today's episode is one that's especially close to my heart. I'm joined by someone I've collaborated with for years. Mark Fairfield, a senior consultant with ALC and co-creator of the relational uprising movement.
Mark brings decades of experience in helping mission-driven organizations navigate relational conflict, culture change, and healing in the face of overwhelm. [00:01:00] In this conversation, we talk about the moments when organizations call us at ALC, not when everything is going well, but when something's broken, when trust is frayed, and when the stakes are high.
We share the frameworks and stories behind our work, how we approach conflict, how we support leaders to move from crisis to clarit, and why relationship building is not just nice to have, but absolutely essential for organizational survival and impact. Whether you're a nonprofit leader, small business owner, or someone invested in building values, aligned teams, this episode offers some important insights for the road ahead.
Let's dive in.
Jennifer Sconyers: Hi everybody. I'm here with Mark Fairfield. Welcome, Mark.
Mark Fairfield: Hi, thank you. Really glad to be here.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you. For our listeners, Mark and I met, I think it was 2018. And it was a workshop that you were [00:02:00] holding at the Gestalt Institute in Cleveland, and it was about relationships and conflicts and how to work through them.
And I think what drew me to the workshop was no one else was doing that work. It was super intriguing, and b, because of the work we do at ALC, it's rooted in relationship connections. I just was really hungry for it, and it was a really authentic and holistic way of creating conditions for rich relationships, belonging.
Community and impact. So that's what drew me to taking these workshops. Um, and that's where we met and we connected and there was this like synergy. Yeah. Like we found allyship and we were just excited about it. So that's just a little bit of a backstory of like how we know each other. We've been collaborating really ever since.
But [00:03:00] tell our listeners Yeah. Who you are, a little bit of your leadership story.
Mark Fairfield: Yeah. Cool. So I've sort of been, my body of work, you know, has really been pretty focused very consistently for few decades on. Um, what I've called the relational emphasis. Um, and, um, and my body of work is now situated sort of in a larger body of work that we refer to as the movement for relational culture.
Yeah. Um, which is now sort of housed in this organization called Relational Uprising, which was founded and is led by. Cedar Lansman and Lucian Damaris who are, um, also, um adjunct faculty [00:04:00] and, trainers with ALC. And the purpose really of that movement has been to really protect.
The cultural values and practices, um, that are necessary to ensure that we, um, can embrace who we are as humans, which is sort of fundamentally and primarily. In relation to each other, sort of on the social level in relation to this environment that we're from and deeply embedded in and entangled with, and our relationships to ourselves and our, own bodies.
And so my, work has really [00:05:00] been about. Um supporting communities and organizations to, um, embrace and work with and make the most of that inevitable truth in reality about who we are as humans. And a lot of that work has been generated out of. Um, being sort of invited into challenges that organizations, institutions, communities, movements, continue to face?
Kind of, yeah, because relationships are so hard to protect in the face of the kinds of challenges, big challenges, big threats and all of the conflicts and, um. Kind of erosion, you know? Yeah. Of connection. That can tend to happen when we are in the midst of actually trying to defend the, those things that are most [00:06:00] precious to us, our values, you know, justice, equity.
Yeah. So, um, that's been my. My work and sort of also the, kind of the backdrop of why I was doing the workshop that you know, you enrolled in and how we ended up connecting.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. Well, thank you for that context, Mark. Um, I think something that listeners should know is that one of the things that really aligned Mark and I and continues to is that, you know, the culture change work that we do.
Is really doing it through the lens of systemic change in organizational development. So for listeners, you know, one of the philosophies I had in starting ALC was it wasn't just about dropping in an organization, doing some leadership coaching and sending people on their way. It was really about from the inside out, how to enhance relationships, the performance, the outputs, like the [00:07:00] holistic being of the organization and how that organization connects to other orgs in their ecosystem. So, depending on the work that they do. Um, and I think the thing that's really specific here is that Mark, you, and I have worked with nonprofits, right? So that's a very specific niche. Um. We work with nonprofits that I would say are social justice oriented, right?
They are mission-driven. Um, they are working with impacted communities in some way, shape, or form. And so that's unique and specific, and there's. There are certain things that drive those organizations, right? So the culture and the people and their impact are necessary and important for them to thrive.
And so I think this creates really ripe and rich conditions for us to do our work.
Mark Fairfield: Yeah. They're really motivated
Jennifer Sconyers: [00:08:00] Yeah.
Mark Fairfield: To make those relationships work um, and of course. Nonprofits, you know, kind of famously are under-resourced and Right. So there's often not enough support. Yeah.
To face overwhelming challenges and, yeah. So, you know, historically for humans when humans are in those kinds of situations, it's their ability to form, you know, relationships really grounded in solidarity and protect those relationships that actually help them to rise to those challenges because otherwise they would be completely overwhelmed and dispersed and fail.
Um, so I think, yeah, particularly the institutions that we've. With, um, they didn't need to be sold on the idea that the relationships needed protecting. They just didn't have the strategies and the [00:09:00] framework for kind of figuring out how to do it in a way that would work.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. So I think something that you mentioned before, and we can dig into this a bit, you know, relation, sorry.
Organizations have typically called us when they're in pain, right? That's typically when we get the phone call. Usually, it's because staff have left. There's some sort of mass exodus that has happened, and it's been the staff with some of the most diverse backgrounds, we'll say, who've left. And that's the signal that we're doing something wrong.
We don't know what that thing is, and we wanna fix it. Right. Um, and so through that, I know we've worked with different organizations around the country, right? And through this, we've created some. Some different interventions. Can you speak to, and I'm thinking, like when we have like the really serious conflicts, can you speak to some of the things or the approaches we've done or tried when we're helping people through really [00:10:00] complex conflicts?
Mark Fairfield: Yeah. Well, I think one of the first things about those interventions that's probably worth making explicit is, um, that they're not like quick and easy fixes, right, because they're way downstream of a much bigger problem. And you know, as with almost every pain point, people wait until the pain is big before they call.
And the size, the volume, the intensity of the pain is pretty much correlated with how deep the problem runs. So it requires, you know, these are the kinds of problems that require some depth in knowing, responding to the conflict. So that's the first. The thing to say is that there's not a really easy systematized strategy that you can just hand [00:11:00] over to the right folks to sort of, you know, deal with those kinds of problems.
We have systematized culture-building strategies that are great for preventing those kinds of problems, right? Promoting a culture that sort of favors, you know, less conflict. Um, but people generally don't think about preventing things until they've gotten sick with the thing that they want to prevent.
Right? Right. So we kind of think of it that way, like, this is getting sick. There's a lot of pain already, that it's just labor-intensive. And, um, it takes time to kind of get in there. But I know we, we've sort of used what we call a rapid response, um, kind of coaching intervention. Yes. Which basically sets up the conditions that to kind of help the organization, um, support people in pain to surface the issues, um, promptly [00:12:00] and, you know, get access to support really quickly because if you let those problems fester, they get worse and so often.
People leave, you know, because they despair of really ever, you know, being able to, you know, satisfactorily resolve those issues. But one of the most important pieces about doing conflict work that I think we, you know, learned over and over again is that, um, there are really. Different kinds of conflicts.
Yeah. And that, um, some conflicts are just gonna happen. They're inevitable because in organizations. It's just kind of hard to avoid this happening. You know, people will end up getting thrown together into collaborations and only later realize we have really different [00:13:00] theories about what the problem is.
Yeah. Or, we are so committed to our very different, and at times, opposing strategies for solving those problems that will cling to those strategies, you know? Instead of protecting our relationships. So, you know, the first piece always feels like is to find out what's the motivation for people to protect these relationships where conflict.
And if we can find that motivation, which is usually in the form of a shared vision, precious, to protect right. Or a deep understanding that. We don't have time for conflict because the problem is so big and we're both equally gonna suffer. Yeah. From the not getting solved the way that we're like shared sort of stakeholders, and to kind of help people really develop narratives.
Yeah. That they can start to tell [00:14:00] to each other, to themselves, to the larger collective and about. Why relationship, why that relationship is so important to protect.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah,
Mark Fairfield: that, that's been a really kind of important part, but I think it's equally as important for people to be able to share the stories of how they got to this project, to this movement, to this moment.
You know, where they are in the same boat. That's the other piece about, you know, people in these organizational systems. Didn't choose each other, they chose the system. Right. Right. So these are not chosen relationships. So they're thrown into relationships and um, I guess there's this assumption that, you know, your resume.
Is and you're having accepted the position is context enough for people to form solid, good relationships. And the truth is that there's a lot of work [00:15:00] to be done, right. To get, to really trust, to get into the trenches together. It's one thing to walk through, right? But once you're really required to sort of take risks and stick your neck out, you don't wanna do that with somebody.
Yeah, that you know, you're not giving the benefit of the doubt, and we just know that it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt to people that you don't know very well, and you're more likely to have a lot of biases about precisely because you don't have enough of their story. Yeah.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanna break some of this down for listeners because I, because what you've named is our approach and it's actually quite complex, right?
So I'll start with what we named at the beginning, that these are groups that are mission-driven groups. So the people who are experiencing the conflict by definition, are aligned to the mission of the organization, right? So like that's. That's what brought them in. And these are social impact groups.
They're not making [00:16:00] widgets, right? Like they're literally in there because there's an alignment with the mission and there's also passion about the mission. So I just, I think that's also something to name that these are people who have enough passion for the mission. And the work that's being done.
So they deeply care about the work that they're doing. So I think that's important to name. So to that point, when there's a conflict, part of the motivation in working the conflict is there's a passion about this mission and what the org is doing. The conflict is getting in their way of doing this work, and they wanna fix it.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. And what they're hoping for is a quick fix, but oftentimes it's a little bit deeper. Right. Sometimes these con, sometimes it truly is interpersonal. Sometimes there actually isn't values alignment.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah, exactly. Right?
Jennifer Sconyers: Right. And that can be based on their personal values and their organization's values.
It could be; there's actually some misalignment with them in the [00:17:00] organization. There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. The other thing you named I want to signal for people is there are biases that can be at play.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah.
Jennifer Sconyers: And we dig into that, too. You know what I mean? Like this is, if we're going to have a healthy organizational system, we have to look at the whole organism and deal with, you know, what comes up, for example, in these conflicts.
And so we have to address unconscious biases head-on. Yeah. Yeah. And storytelling is one of the mechanisms that we use to unpack what that is. Can you speak a little to the storytelling structure? Because it's specific and I think people understand that we're not telling stories for stories.
There's a context involved when we use this approach.
Mark Fairfield: Yeah. Well, we use story because we, because bias thrives in a vacuum.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah.
Mark Fairfield: So we use story to [00:18:00] eliminate the vacuum. Right? Yeah. And, um, so what kind of story eliminates a vacuum is particularly in this kind of impact-focused, mission-driven scenario?
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah,
Mark Fairfield: And I mean I think it it's essentially a story it, that we can craft about, you know, why we came to this mission. Um, the values that have been sort of organizing us. Often, for a very long time before we ended up here how we came to appreciate and learn how to protect those values, which is usually through overcoming some really significant challenges.
And really important component is, you know, the piece of like having learned what supports us to be able to do. When I get clear about what [00:19:00] you've learned supports you to stand up and fight the threats to our shared value, you become an asset to me. Yeah. I, now I need you because you leadership brings me a lesson.
Yeah. About something important about what it is to protect my value. Yeah. And so we can kind of knit our stories together around our shared picture. It's much more difficult for me to start trashing our relationship 'cause I really need you.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah.
Mark Fairfield: Yeah.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. I think that's important because there's a term interdependence that's used, right?
And that's not a, that's not a word we use in our western vernacular. Like, you don't really hear that. Can you explain what interdependence is? This is actually really important, and I'll say to listeners, the thing I'll say in any training coaching session when we start is no one is [00:20:00] floating in a bubble above a cloud.
We are interconnected. Right. So this idea of interdependence is actually important. Can you speak to what that is?
Mark Fairfield: Well, this is so kind of fundamental to a relational orientation. Yeah. Um, we start end, and everything in between in entanglement. And there's folly in ignoring the ways that we're entangled.
Um, we do much more harm when we assume that we are neatly separated from each other. Um, we impact each other. Obviously, we impact our environment. The environment impacts us. Like it's really difficult to prove that you're not entangled and yet I think that inspires, you know, fear, particularly [00:21:00] in Western.
Cultures that that that have been profoundly sort of organized around individualism. Um, you know, but at the same time, I do think it's important to acknowledge that everybody contributes something unique.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah.
Mark Fairfield: We're entangled, we're also all capable of bringing something important and different to the situation.
Right. One of the things that we often say about conflict is that conflict points to differences that are being suppressed, right? Conflict is a bookmark for the hopefully that moment when we can come together to appreciate that we are bringing different things to right. The situation, the organization, the culture, the practices are not equipped.
They don't know how to handle the difference. [00:22:00] And so without the support to really appreciate and integrate the difference, it suppresses the difference, but that then causes pain because the very things that people have to bring that are valuable. Right. Right. So, so interdependence is well.
We're not really able, yeah. To bring our difference without the cooperation of a larger system that supports us to be able to do that.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. And I think this is what's fundamental about our work. We actually want people to bring their differences because it is that, those differences that actually support an organization's health.
So instead of making an organization more homogenous and group think. To get the goal. Actually, our approach is no. It enriches your organization to have those differences there in a very fundamental way and support you in working through your [00:23:00] conflicts. So instead of, you know, we have to all look and think the same, we're gonna ignore the conflicts, put our heads down.
No. Our approach is actually. It serves us and serves you as an organization to have those differences there, to create the conditions for you all where you can build on deeper your relationships, you can work through your conflicts for the purpose of you as an organization to achieve your mission and your social impact.
Mark Fairfield: Yeah, that's right. Um, and I actually think that there are a few benefits to, um, alignment. Yep. Certainly getting aligned around what's dangerous. It's really important to have a shared definition of harm. Yeah. You know, is really important. And I think, you do sometimes see conflict emerging in, organizational systems when people disagree on that.
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Right.
Jennifer Sconyers: For sure.
Mark Fairfield: It's not an easy fix to that. Usually someone's gonna leave in that situation, so.
Jennifer Sconyers: Sure. For sure. Well, this is what I [00:24:00] call, you know, I use a swimming pool analogy of our work. You know, we have what I call the shallow end of the pool for people. Where doing any work around team dynamics, relationships, how to bridge across differences, like they're in the early stages, they're in the shallow end, right?
So for, those institutions and groups, we have trainings, um, different kind of models that I'd say are more plug and play that we can adapt, but allows them to have a point of entry. Then we have what I call the medium part of the pool groups, who've tried some of these things, but it's not quite clicking, it's not quite working.
So with them, we begin to incorporate coaching, right? So it's coaching of the managers, the leaders. We do group coaching with them. So they're actually making sure that they're not only trying on what we've taught in the trainings, but also it's like live-time feedback and course correction. Right.
And then there's what I call the deep end of the pool, right? Um, these are groups that have really tried [00:25:00] hard for probably a period of years to make some of these complex strategies work. And not only have they probably failed and their attempts, they've caused harm in the process. And so. Like the really deep strategies that we do around the conflict work, as an example, the highly customized facilitated conversations, the highly customized trainings are for those groups who are in the deep end of the pool.
They would probably consider themselves advanced with these concepts, but something really has not been working to the cause of harm. So I like to name that. As ALC, we do try to diagnose based on some initial conversations with clients where they are in the pool.
Mark Fairfield: Right? Yeah. So we know where to jump in.
So we
Jennifer Sconyers: know where, so we know where to jump in, and we can always shift and change course if we need to. But that's really important. Um, before we close out here, I'm just really curious. Now we are in a time where systemically, there is so much [00:26:00] change happening. Rapidly. And I know for the groups we work with, support, it has been unsettling to say the least.
Right? Right. Um, what are some wisdom, some tips, some pointers? What's something you wanna tell people who are in organizations now, they're going through a series of seed changes. We know in the nonprofit sector there's things happening, there's defunding, there's uncertainty, there's will we lose our C3 status.
There's so much happening. When it comes to the relationships, what's something you wanna just name or impart for people? Is there really in a struggle? Yeah
Mark Fairfield: I just, I've just seen so many times that, you know, people, PE, even people who have pain or you know, around, oh, all hell broke loose. And, you know, there was an exodus.
Um, there is something about business as [00:27:00] usual and business as usual, weirdly gets reactivated in a crisis. Makes zero sense because it's, there's nothing usual about what's going on. So redoubling with kind of usual strategies and usual in my experience is the kind of thing. That actually makes the workplace unsafe for people.
It's the kind of thing that shuts down a focus on and an awareness of the impact that's happening, you know, for people. And, you know, one of the things that we know and one of the things that actually makes this kind of coaching work. Yeah. So, so tricky is that impact is something that is always felt.
Yes. And feelings are personal and embodied and [00:28:00] intimate and deep, and business as usual, the culture of the usual is we don't talk about that stuff. And actually, when you do, you make people uncomfortable, and you become a burden. And, um, this is the worst moment in history. To be reenacting the usual, that usual, because if you have a pulse and you care at all, you are feeling a lot of pain right now.
And I just really worry about under-resourced leaders who yeah. Are you, you know, in a squeeze?
Jennifer Sconyers (2): Yeah.
Mark Fairfield: Um, just feeling like. There's not enough time and there's not enough space to pay attention to that stuff. God knows there's not enough budget. Yeah, In the support to help them pay attention to that stuff.
And I, so I guess I just wanna say, you know, warning, warning, yeah. This is the moment to pull back. This is the [00:29:00] moment to lean in. Yeah. Deeply felt experience. It is a resource. Yeah. It's what people's leadership is. If we can figure out the best way to support people to sort of translate their felt experience into well-thought-through, you know, principles, frameworks, and strategies.
Yeah. There's space, you know, to bring that pain in. Yeah. Pushing pain away is a really bad idea.
Jennifer Sconyers: Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that, Mark, 'cause I think this is, it's like an existential crisis that we're seeing, you know in, in the sector and people not knowing which way is up. And so I know, you know, in thinking about our scenarios for this year, best to worst case, I'd say we're in the worst case scenario.
We more broadly and so. At ALC, we're really being adaptive to that. So, like creating programs that are more user-friendly and budget-friendly for folks so they can get the resources they need. [00:30:00] Um, working with groups who need to do some strategic planning and do it in a way that's really focused, but also way that's connected for them so they can build the relationships and have the hard questions.
Right. Our approach to planning's meant to be transformational for the group, not just produce a plan, but to transform relationships. Um. So this is really the time to lean in, right? Um, you know, come to us for support if, you want there, if you wanna learn more, feel free to come to our website, jennifer scotter.com.
But I'm, I wanna send out the back signal to people that, you know we want you to thrive in this era and make it to the other side. And we just see the risks happening right now from groups that are kind of like collapsing and shutting down. Figured in literally, um, the business as usual., So to that end, I wanna just say thank you, Mark for coming on. I was excited for us to talk and talk about the work we do together at A [00:31:00] LCI actually, that Mark's one of our. Um, senior consultants, Mark's been doing the work for many years and you bring, I think, you know, people should know you were a therapist for a number of years, right?
So the, you have, you're uniquely qualified to deal with unique situational relationships. So I just wanna name that like Mark's got skills here follows, right? Which is why I enjoy collaborating with him, especially on these like, really complex types of projects. 'cause there's a level of.
Intention and care you bring that's, aligned with what we do at ALC. So I just wanted to name that. Um, so you're welcome. So, um, next time we'll have another guest. We'll talk about their social change and what they're doing. If you wanna learn more about what we do at ALC, you can find [email protected].
You can also listen on this podcast. Thanks everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us today on the ALC Changemakers Podcast. [00:32:00] If you found today's conversation inspiring or helpful, we'd love it if you'd subscribe, rate, and leave a review. It helps other changemakers like you find our show at Abundance Leadership Consulting, we believe in building sustainable leadership and connected communities through justice, courage, and care.
If you wanna learn more about our work access leadership resources. Connect with our community. Head over to jennifer.com. Until next time, keep leading with purpose. Keep building relationships that matter and keep creating change one bold step at a time.
